Philosophy for Life
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Philosophy for Life
Jordan Grumet | The Purpose Code
Hey, what's up guys? This is your host, Deron Brown. This is the podcast Philosophy for Life. I have Jordan Grumet If you've been on this channel he's no stranger to this channel, he's been on here before we're going to discuss his new book, the Purpose Code. Is that right? That's correct. The Purpose Code, the Purpose Code, and we're going to get into it. Jordan, why did you even write this book in the first place?
Speaker 2:Well, basically I was marketing my first book, and so I'm a hospice doctor and I take care of dying patients, but I'm also a personal finance podcaster and I found that dying had a lot to teach us about money and life. And one of the main premises of my first book, Taking Stock, is that we should put purpose first before we build the financial framework around it. And so I went to market this book. I went to conferences, I gave talks and people would come up to me after the talks and they'd be angry. And the first time this happened I was like, oh, this is a one office, no big deal. But it happened over and over again.
Speaker 2:I get people who'd come up to me and they'd say look, I love your message, but you keep on telling me to find my purpose. And I've been looking for my purpose my whole life. I have no idea what it is, and I'm really sick of people like you telling me to find my purpose. I don't believe there is a purpose and I don't think I should be searching for it. And this kind of hit me as weird because I had never thought about it other than it seemed important that we pursue purpose.
Speaker 2:So I went and did a dive of the literature and I found two things that kind of contradicted each other. First and foremost, purpose is associated with health, happiness and longevity. Tons of studies, there are tons and tons of studies. Having the sense of purpose in life is utterly important. On the other hand, there are other studies that show that up to 91% of people have what's called purpose anxiety at some point in their life. This idea that there's a purpose and they can't find it makes them anxious, depressed and frustrated. So that's a paradox. And how can it be both the most important thing and also anxiety provoking? I realized that there's probably more than one version of purpose, and at least one type of purpose is probably associated with anxiety and frustration. The other kind of purpose is probably associated with that joy, happiness and longevity, and so I wrote the book to clarify my version of purpose and why I think we get it wrong.
Speaker 1:Why do you think people are lost and don't have a purpose? You know, I've meet with people. I honestly, I speak to people daily and a lot of people that I speak to they typically tell me I I feel like I'm supposed to be doing something more. I just don't know what to do.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing I think we've built up purpose into this high stakes scenario where you either figure out your purpose, live a good life, have huge impact, or you never figure out your purpose and you're miserable. And so we've made it incredibly high stakes. And guess what? Society has made it really high stakes too. So look who's influencing us? A, they're the influencers, right? They're the people who make videos that are trying to sell you something. So they present this vision of six pack abs or eight figure businesses or traveling the world or wearing the best clothes, but they're not doing it because they want you to be happier people. They're doing it because they want to sell you something.
Speaker 2:But the problem is most people actually don't have the agency to do all those things. Most people genetically can't have six-pack abs, nor do they have the time or the energy to work out that much. Most people aren't going to travel the whole world. A lot of people weren't born in the right place or at the right time or have the right mentors to have seven or eight figure businesses. So it's not something they've agency to have and therefore it brings out purpose. Anxiety causes them stress because they're told they should be these things, but they can't be them.
Speaker 2:And it's not just influencers, it's marketing too. We watch TV, people are trying to sell things to us, and they create these beautiful images of what your life could look like if you just buy the thing they're selling, and so the problem with that is they try to convince us to co-opt their version of purpose, and usually it's big, audacious, hard to achieve purpose, which leaves a lot of people sad and frustrated. No one kind of says to you purpose is individual and you can find purpose in something small and joyful and something that lights you up, and that can be enough. You don't have to prove that you're good enough. You don't have to change the world, you just got to find what you like. No one really tells you that.
Speaker 1:Well, where's the line? Because on social media, yes, I do believe people. They portray a fantasy life. They only post vacations, they post their best body that they had five years ago, et cetera. But social media also motivates people. It motivates people to get out of the bed, it motivates people to get certain things. So where's the line between focusing too much on social media and then getting some kind of motivation from it?
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing what is it motivating you to do? If it's motivating you to get out of bed and do something you find deeply joyful, something that is a good use of your time, that you enjoy the moments of doing it every day, then that's wonderful. The problem is, a lot of this actually motivates us to do things that we really don't want to do, like a lot of people hate working out, a lot of people don't love travel, a lot of people don't fit in the really nice clothes, and so they have this goal in mind and they're told that this goal is the most important thing. But the problem is they spend 90 to 95% of their time doing something they don't do in order to reach this goal, which A they may never reach because they just might not have agency to do that. Or they might reach it. But the problem is what happens when these people reach their goal? They spent 95% of their time doing something they didn't like to reach their goal, and they're happy with it for about five minutes, and then there's this thing called hedonic adaption, where we get so used to our new normal that it doesn't even excite us anymore, and then we're off to the next goal, which means spending 95% of your future time doing stuff you don't like to reach this big, audacious goal. It sounds good, but we don't want other people to have to motivate us to do the things that are purposeful for us. We want to be deeply internally motivated because we all know that's when we do our biggest work and best work. We don't do our best work when someone shames us into getting out of bed and doing something. We do our best work when we have that internal drive that pull, that flow that excites us so much that we're jumping out of bed because we can't wait to be in the middle of it.
Speaker 2:I know for you and me that's podcasting. You and I can both have a huge goal of having a million downloads a week, but the truth of the matter is we might not have agency to get there. We might not have the time, we might not have the resources, we may not be that good at podcasting. We may not have the money to pay to have six people run our podcast. If that's our goal and we focus our purpose on that, we're probably going to be frustrated or at least exhausted trying to get there. But what if you and I show up and we love having the conversations and we feel lit up every time we step in front of that mic. We don't need someone to tell us to do that. We feel it internally. And so I think we've lost track of these deep internal beckonings, these inklings of important things, and instead we've replaced them with these hard to reach goals that everyone tells us we're supposed to be getting.
Speaker 1:You know I came to the same realization. I remember I had the goal of making a hundred thousand dollars a month. It's like man, you know I want this. And now I realize that I really I don't need that much to be happy. 10k a month, you know, 20k a month, I really don't even. I just need a little bit to feel free to do the things I want to do, and don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:Having 100K a month goal or having a goal of having a million downloads a week are fine goals and I'm goal agnostic. I don't mind you having goals. But if your sense of enjoyment and purpose, if your joy in doing the activity only relates to whether you hit that goal or not, I think you're doing it wrong. If you enjoy what you're doing and you happen to have some goals, the point is, if you hit the goal or don't hit the goal, you still want to enjoy your daily activities. You still want to find purpose in it. The goal almost doesn't matter. It's great if you hit it, but you're totally happy if you don't hit it. When I get finished doing a podcast with you, I'm totally happy. Whether a million people listen to it or one other person listens to it, it doesn't matter, because that hour was a good hour. You can't take that away from me. No sense of goal can change that. That was purposeful activity and the more hours I feel doing stuff like this, the happier I am, regardless of where it ends up.
Speaker 1:You know, since we're on this topic, in your book you mentioned two types of purposes, that is, I think that's little P and the big P. Can you go into detail what those are?
Speaker 2:So big P purpose is the one, I think, that's mostly associated with anxiety, and it usually is surrounded by big, audacious goals. We're talking about becoming a billionaire, becoming president, traveling to Mars, being a major league baseball slugger, right Like winning the pennant. All these are really big, huge things, and if you're not the right person at the right time, doing the right things, with the right genetics and a whole bunch of luck, you're probably not going to get there, which means that 99% of people who go for big, audacious goals fail and feel miserable about it. So it's very much all or nothing. You either succeed or you fail. Usually, there's a limited number of people who succeed right, so it's winner takes all.
Speaker 2:Look at the presidential election recently like one person wins and one person loses. Compare that to what I call little p purpose. Little p purpose doesn't care about goals, it's all about process. So it's about doing what you enjoy, spending your time engaged in things that are deeply important to you. There's no way to fail this. You just do the thing and you either like the thing and keep doing it, or you don't like the thing and do something else. It's not all or nothing, it's all or all. So what I'm really talking about is abundance. There are a million things you could do that you would enjoy the process of doing, but it's not like big P purpose, which is scarce, which only a few number of people reach it, and so I want abundance for you. I want what I call agency, the ability to actually change the outcome, and little P purpose gives you that, and that's why I think it's more associated with health, longevity and happiness, with all the studies show, whereas big P purpose tends to be a little bit isolating.
Speaker 1:Can you give me some examples of Little P Purpose?
Speaker 2:Certainly, let's go back to podcasting. Big P Purpose, a million downloads a week. Little P Purpose, I love interviewing you for an hour and I just want to have fun, exciting interviews. Big P Purpose, I want to be a major league slugger. Little P Purpose, I grew up loving baseball cards, so now, as an adult, I'm going to start collecting again and going to conferences and starting a blog about baseball cards. You name it, it's out there. Big P Purpose, I want to drive F1. Little P Purpose, I love watching F1 and I'm going to go join the local racing group and help teach myself how to drive better. Like little P purpose is within our reach. It's very achievable and it requires action. But as long as you're willing to take the action, little P purpose is very achievable.
Speaker 1:Okay, gotcha, why reason I really? And the reason I wanted you to list those is because, like I said, I speak to people and they don't know what they want to do. They don't know what their next step is going to be. They want to change their situation, but they don't even know where to start, you know. So, I think, for them to hear some ideas of what little P purpose is and how it actually well, yeah, let's talk about that. What does having purpose actually do for you? Do for your mental health? How does it help you grow?
Speaker 2:So basically, like I said, there've been plenty of studies that show that having a sense of purpose causes increased health, longevity and happiness. But if you really want to look at the happiness equation, in my mind happiness is made up of two things meaning and purpose. Now, a lot of people think meaning and purpose are the same thing, but they're actually very different. Meaning is our cognitive understanding of our past. It has everything to do with thoughts and the past and it's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories Like I hit this traumatic event in my childhood or whatever, and I got past it and I'm the great person I became because I was a hero and made it through and therefore, in the future, I'm going to be able became because I was a hero and made it through and therefore in the future, I'm going to be able to manage difficult things. Whereas an unhappy person tends to tell themselves victim stories. I hit this traumatic thing in childhood. It got the best of me and I became a victim and I could never get to where I wanted to go. That's why I'm here, and the same thing is likely to happen in the future.
Speaker 2:Meaning is all about past and it's the stories we tell ourselves. And really it's about feeling enough. People have a good sense of meaning who tell themselves a hero story. What they're really saying is I was enough then and I'll be enough in the future. That leads us to purpose. Purpose is not about thoughts, it's about actions and it's all about the present and the future. Right, so to be happy, you need meaning, that sense I am enough. And then you need purpose the actions in the present and future. And because you already feel enough, because you have a good sense of meaning, you don't have to use purpose to prove your worthiness. You don't have to achieve this big thing or get the million downloads or have the six pack abs or travel the world, because you already feel enough and you don't need these outside indicators that prove it.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest mistakes people make and they say I can't find my purpose. They're actually having a meaning problem. They don't feel enough. And because they don't feel enough, they try to purpose their way to enough, purpose their way to happiness. And it doesn't work, because all the actions in the world aren't going to fix the fact that you don't feel enough. Making a million dollars won't do it. None of these things will.
Speaker 2:You've got to get a better sense of meaning, but once you do that, you can step into the present and future and a purpose with abundance, because once you feel like you're enough, you don't have to prove yourself anymore. With abundance, because once you feel like you're enough, you don't have to prove yourself anymore. You can just do the things that light you up. If that's podcasting, you don't have to hit some benchmark. You just get behind the mic and do your thing. If it's running, you don't have to have a three-hour marathon. You just get out there and run. You do the things you enjoy the process of doing. If you hit the goal, great. If you don't hit the goal, no problem.
Speaker 1:How do you find, how do you get to a point where you feel like you are enough? Because people they show they may feel like they're enough in one aspect of their life, but they may not feel like they're enough in a relationship, that's that's a meaning problem, and so there are lots of people who never really got over the trauma of childhood.
Speaker 2:In fact, their traumas cause them to tell themselves stories, and those stories aren't always healthy as they get older.
Speaker 2:This is generational trauma, if it's handed down from your parents, or it's lived trauma, if you go through things. But you tend to tell yourself stories that help you cope but aren't always the best stories as you get older. So the way you feel enough is you have to do something called narrative therapy, where you go back, you look at the something called narrative therapy. Where you go back, you look at the major narratives of your life, you separate yourself from the trauma and you realize that something bad happened to me, but I wasn't a bad person, and you start seeing yourself as more a hero of the situation that survived a difficult thing, as opposed to a victim that had no agency over what happened to them. So the way you get to enough is through narrative therapy. Now, some people do that on their own, some people do that with a therapist, but the idea is to rewrite your narratives such that you had more control and agency, such that you were enough, because once you feel enough in your past, purpose gets much easier.
Speaker 1:Narrative therapy? I've never heard of that. What does that look like, and how do people typically handle it on their own?
Speaker 2:It's a series of steps. You can look this up and it'll tell you the four or five different steps. Step one is identify your narratives. Step two is to separate you from the thing that happened. Step three is to create a new narrative around what happened.
Speaker 2:Step four is to externalize that to your later life and so there's a series of steps you can go through that helps you make that journey from I went through this crappy thing because I was bad to I went through this crappy thing and yet I was a good person. And because I was a good person, I found ways to cope with it and move on and become the hero of my current life.
Speaker 1:Awesome. In your book I read something around purpose anxiety. Yeah, what is?
Speaker 2:that all about. So purpose anxiety is this idea that we have some great big purpose out there, but we can't find it, and so we feel bereft and lost. And it's exceedingly common. And remember, social media and marketing and even our parents increase this purpose anxiety. Right, we talked about social media and all those images of all those things were supposed to be the big P purpose. We talked about marketing and they're trying to sell us stuff. But our parents do it too.
Speaker 2:Like you, most kids are happy and have a sense of purpose and they'll go out and play baseball all day and lose track of time and have the greatest time ever.
Speaker 2:But what happens is we get older, we get trapped into careers all of a sudden. Well, you played baseball and that was fun, but now you've got to start studying because you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer or CPA or whatever it is. But society tells us what we're supposed to be and we lose track of those things we really love. And so purpose anxiety is that disconnect of what we think we're supposed to be, or we think we can't find, versus what truly lights us up inside, and a lot of times we don't feel the permission to actually pursue the things that light us up inside. We feel like we should have this bigger version of purpose that has a huge impact and leaves a huge legacy, and that leaves people paralyzed because they don't know how to have a big impact and legacy. They don't know how to do all these big things everyone tells them they're supposed to do and so it actually upsets them. It doesn't help them.
Speaker 1:How is purpose anxiety manifested in everyday life? Like what do people typically end up doing?
Speaker 2:So I think there's lots of ways. One is this idea that there's this version of purpose. They either find it in life as good or they don't find it. All is lost. So that's I think the first way it's manifested is just this idea that I can't find my purpose because I haven't found that one big thing and we hear people say this all the time I haven't found that one big thing. So that's a clear version of purpose anxiety.
Speaker 2:I think job hopping is actually a version of purpose anxiety. I know some people do it just to make more money, but a lot of times they feel like they're going to get into this job, it's going to feel purposeful and it's going to fill them up. And then they that they're not feeling filled up and they don't know what their purpose is. They think I can just jump to another job and I'm going to find it there. Imposter syndrome is another one, this feeling that I don't fit because I'm good enough and I shouldn't be in this role. But another way of thinking about that is this doesn't feel purposeful or good to me, so why am I doing it? This isn't me. No-transcript. There's a lot of reticence to pursue it.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think oh man, you said something pretty good, okay, so how do you talk about the grass is greener effect? Like, when it comes to work, people think they're going to leave one job and things are just going to be better, but you really experience the same thing over and over again. Typically, what about in relationships, romantic relationships? People feel like they're in a good relationship, but they feel like something's missing and they want to jump out of that and see if the grass is greener. Like, does that is purpose anxiety?
Speaker 2:associated with that as well Is purpose anxiety associated with that as well. So I've never considered that, but I would say that this idea that I'm missing something that I should have and if I just trade in for another model, another relationship or another job, is going to improve things, as opposed to looking inward and saying what's important to me and how do I build or create that in my life. Remember, people think you have to find purpose. Everyone's like how do I find my purpose, whether that's in a relationship, whether it's in a job or whether it's in life in general. But I always tell people purpose is about action, it's not about finding, it's about creating and building. So it is true we have to come up with what are some inklings or beckonings towards purposeful things, but then the onus is really on us. We have to build or create a life of purpose. It's work. It's not easy. You actually have to work at this.
Speaker 1:The reason I ask that question? Because it's super common, super common. For you know, I've even been a victim of that, you know, thinking the grass is greener or maybe I'm missing the one, or you know, and what I realized is that I just took people for granted, To be honest, that's. What I realized is that I just took people for granted, to be honest.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm worried this is. This is unrelated, but I think it's really true. Thinking that there's one purpose and eschewing all others to find that one is the same as thinking there's only one person who could be right for you and eschewing all others because of that. The truth of the matter is there probably millions of versions of purpose that could fit you, and there's probably dozens of people that you could fall in love with and have a good relationship with. It's more about the work and the connection and building something than it is about finding the exact right one, and so I think purpose and relationships are similar in that sense. Is you're going to get farther by finding someone of interest or something of interest and then building a life or relationship around it, as opposed to finding the perfect thing and just dropping right into it, because that's not how life works.
Speaker 1:Great point, great point. I love the way let's end it there. In your book, at the beginning of your book, you mentioned Celia. Is that her name? Celia's story? I want to say what are the drawbacks? Can you Cilia? Is that her name? Cilia Story? I want to say can you discuss the drawbacks of her story when it comes to pursuing large scale goals or purpose?
Speaker 2:So it's funny the end product can be the same, but the process can be different and it can mean everything. So let's talk about big P, little P, and let's talk about Celia. So Celia was born in a family where her parents had a very successful business venture a bunch of restaurants and they decided to do something really good with this. They decided to create a bunch of homeless shelters and feed the poor, and so they did this, and Celia, their daughter, worked in these homeless shelters and she loved greeting people as they came in. She loved handing out food. This really filled her up. This was her little P purpose. She loved showing up. It didn't matter how many people she fed, it didn't matter the world she was changing. She just liked being there holding people's hands, comforting people, giving them food that lit her up people giving them food that lit her up.
Speaker 2:Well, celia's mom was the one who actually did all the hard work associated with this. When it came to the paperwork, the getting donations, the organization, all things Celia had no interaction with. Now, mind you, celia and her mother both had the same wish to help people to do good. Their purpose was the same, which was to be there for people in need, but their activities were very different. So what happened? Celia's mom eventually gets sick and she dies, and when she dies, she finds out that running the actual homeless shelter and the food pantries was all being given to her, and so, instead of being able to do what she loved doing, which is showing up handing out food, being with people, she all of a sudden had to get on donor calls. She had to do all the organizing. She had to do all the administrating. She had to have a much bigger vision of the future. How is she going to grow this endeavor? How is she going to help more people? How is she going to disrupt the world and the community to make things better?
Speaker 2:Now, this sounds wonderful, but actually she found that she didn't love the process anymore. Instead of being there holding people's hands and giving them food, she was behind her computer typing letters. She was going to board meetings, she was doing all these things that she didn't like anymore, and so she found a lack of purpose and anxiety. She no longer felt connected to what she was doing, and so, for Celia, big P purpose was changing the world by doing all this administrative stuff, where what really lit her up was the little P purpose which was being there with people, and so that's where we can become confused. Even if the goal is the same, even if the version of purpose is the same to help people it can look different depending on the process, and that's what's really important. We have to do things. That was just working in the food pantry, but those bigger goals didn't make her any happier or more lit up, and in fact they mostly made her feel burnt out.
Speaker 1:Okay, Is Celia. Why the name Celia? Is she a real person and is this a real story? What influenced the story?
Speaker 2:So everything in the book are real stories but the names have been changed and a lot of the circumstances have been changed because A I work as a physician part of the time, so a lot of the things I encounter I encounter as a physician. So I can't give people's real names. But I also change the ideas of the story without changing the general thought line. So I might change the professions, I might change the type of volunteer work, but the general motivations for the story and what the story says is different. But it connects with reality because I don't want to disclose anything about someone that I've ever treated or someone I've ever coached.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, gotcha Makes sense. Okay, so you said that, celia, basically her story. It led to burnout. How does pursuing a big P purpose lead to burnout?
Speaker 2:Well, the problem with big P purpose is, most of the time it's very difficult to achieve. So it takes a huge amount of work, it takes a huge amount of effort and because it's not process oriented, it's goal oriented, a lot of times we don't enjoy the day-to what we're doing. I mean, it happened to me as a doctor. I had this big purpose of walking in my father's shoes. So my father died when I was seven and he was a physician, and I figured the way to make up for this cosmic wrongdoing was I was going to walk in his shoes and do what he did. So my purpose not only became becoming a doctor, but it also was filling his shoes, it was fixing the world, it was saving everyone, and it was too big and too difficult. And so I found that I spent most of my day filling out paperwork, helping patients with minimal problems or doing things I didn't like.
Speaker 2:The process was no good good, even if occasionally I did save a life or occasionally I did feel like I was living up to my father's legacy. It never really felt that great, and so I was burning out on the day-to-day activities, and that's why process is so important. If you don't love the process. It's hard to have longevity. And the other problem with big P purposes is, even if you reach the goal so let's say your purpose is to become a billionaire happens when you become a billionaire. Well, guess what? We know a bunch of billionaires. Do you know many who stopped and said one million is enough and now I'm happy? No, most of them then want two billion and 10 billion and end up looking like elon musk. Most of them want more and more and more, but they don't necessarily appear any happier yeah, and he's not happy, elon musk, he's not happy.
Speaker 1:Elon musk has a meaning problem.
Speaker 2:Here's a perfect example elon musk. If you look at purpose, he's made more money than anyone and he's created some of the most amazing things ever, but he keeps on trying to purpose his way to happiness and it doesn't work. What he needs to do is go back and look at his childhood his dad who mistreated him, the kids who made fun of him. He thinks through purpose he can make up for all that, and it isn't working, and that's why the guy doesn't appear particularly happy, although he's accomplished almost anything or everything any of us could want.
Speaker 1:He's got a meaning problem and he's trying to solve it with purpose well, there are people who do have, who do chase big p purposes, making it to the nba, the nfl he did mention. Yes, luck is involved, you have to have the right genetics etc. And not everybody's going to be the next bill gates, but there are people who are, let's say, for our space. There are coaches that do make 50 K plus a month. You know who can't, who can do that for at least for me, that seems like a big purpose, you know. But is there, is there any kind of route somebody can take when it comes to accomplishing these big, big P purposes?
Speaker 2:Well, again, I think, your goal. I have no problem with goals. I just think that you have to make sure you're enjoying the process so you can make as big a goal as you want, but you know you're doing it right. So if your goal is to make 50K a month or 100K a month, or even to make it to the NBA, as long as you're enjoying the day-to-day activities and they're filling you up and lighting you up, then you're fine, because whether you make it to the goal or not, you're going to be happy. Now, if you're working every day, killing yourself, hating what you're doing or not even liking what you're doing, just to get to that I'm going to make the NBA one day, I think you're doing it wrong. There's a perfect example, and I can't remember who it was. I don't pay attention to sports, but I love sports documentaries. And so there was a sports documentary about a coach Maybe it was for Florida state, one of the big football programs and his dream was to take his team to the title. And finally he does and they win. And it's funny because at the end of that episode he's like I just won, I'm about to take time off for the summer.
Speaker 2:Little did. I know that over the next few years I would feel more horrible than any other time in my life. And you know why? Because all of a sudden, he had to replicate a success and he couldn't. He couldn't win the second time, and even if he could, then he had to win the third time and he found himself feeling worse and more down after he met his big P purpose than before. And so it's a slippery slope. You said which coach was this? I don't remember his name. Maybe it was Florida State. It was a football coach. It was a great. It was on Netflix, great football documentary, yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember. I remember hearing that story. I can't remember the coach either. I want to know how does societal expectations when it comes to purpose? How does that impact your mental health?
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of two things happens Either it sets such high expectations you can't meet them so you feel crappy, or it convinces you to do something that you don't actually hold as important on the inside, and so, even if you achieve it, you feel crappy, and so I don't believe society is a really great way for you to set a sense of purpose or to monitor how far you're becoming that thing you want to become. I just think it's a lousy barometer. You really want to find versions of purpose that speak to you as a human being, and it's really hard to look to society to answer that question of what you intimately want to be. It's something you have to kind of find in yourself.
Speaker 1:The thing that I don't like about society. I'm talking about social media specifically. I don't like that. I feel like beauty is becoming so narrowly focused. It seems like everybody, regardless of what your race is, everybody's trying to look, look like each other, have the same features, and it's like I remember growing up, like there were there were, there were way more. There were just many things that made somebody beautiful. You know, and you value the variety, and then also, you didn't have to be the best looking guy or the richest guy to have a beautiful woman Like you. Really just had to speak to them and make them feel so good.
Speaker 2:We have to really be aware of the fact that most people on social media, especially the ones with the bigger followings, are trying to sell us something. They're trying to sell us on something that they're marketing their course. Their product, whatever you know is being hawked on their channel because they're being paid to do it, or they're trying to just get more followers so they can get more ad revenue, and so it's not really Same with marketing. I mean, what's being sold to you is not necessarily for your own good, it's for someone else's good. They're posting not for you. They're posting for themselves, and so I think we need to be wary of trying to co-opt someone's version of purpose based on what they're putting out on the internet.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to talk about purpose anxiety. How does purpose anxiety differ from regular stress that people experience when they're trying to pursue a goal?
Speaker 2:regular, stress that people experience when they're trying to pursue a goal. I think that let me think about that. I've never put it in those terms, you know. I think when people have regular anxiety about a goal, it doesn't paralyze them. They don't sit there and think everything is lost. If I don't get there, it's hey, I want to do this thing and I'm not quite getting there, and I'm feeling anxious because I don't get there. It's hey, I want to do this thing and I'm not quite getting there, and I'm feeling anxious because I don't know the way forward.
Speaker 2:Purpose anxiety, on the other hand, is more like what am I going to do with my life? I can't seem to find it, and so all is lost. And so I think it's a bigger version of what we feel when we're looking kind of at goal-based anxiety. But remember a good deal of purpose anxiety is goal-based anxiety. We're just talking about big, audacious goals. So it's one thing to say I want to get an A on this test and I'm not sure what to study, and that's giving me anxiety. Right, that's much different than being. You know, I want to win the Nobel Peace Prize for developing this mathematical formula that no one ever has solved before. Right, if that's your sense of purpose, you're going to have lots of purpose anxiety because it's really hard to get there. So a lot of it has to do with agency. I guess normal anxiety, especially towards a goal. The question is, how much agency do you actually have to achieve that thing? If you have agency, it's probably normal anxiety. If you actually don't have agency, then it's probably more purpose anxiety.
Speaker 1:All right. I want to know how does purpose help aid you in longevity, living longer, being happier, et cetera?
Speaker 2:So here's the thing about my book. I almost lie to you a little bit. I say purpose is the most important thing, but then I talk a lot about the Harvard Adult Developmental Study. This started in the early 1900s. They took a bunch of Harvard students, eventually brought in a bunch of their family members, then finally got some controls from Boston. In general, we're talking about thousands and thousands of people, and in the early 1900s they started by doing interviews with them every two years. As technology got better, they started doing blood tests. They eventually started doing MRIs and EEGs and asking them all sorts of questions about their income and their happiness levels. Eventually they started actually even interviewing their family and friends.
Speaker 2:After 80 or 90 years of conducting these studies, they came up with one conclusion about happiness. They found the one thing associated with happiness wasn't money, wasn't achievements, wasn't profession and even wasn't necessarily purpose. What they found was most connected to happiness was interpersonal relationships and connections Interpersonal relationships and connections. So how does that relate to purpose? Well, in my vision of the world, little P.
Speaker 2:Purpose lights you up. You do things that you really love. When you become lit up like that, like a moth to the flame, other people are attracted to you. They want to collaborate you. If they know more than you, they want to teach you. If they know less than you, they want to become your student. They want to be a mentor or a mentee. That's how we create connections and community and that's what interpersonal relationships are. They're connection and community. So I think Little P Purpose specifically, is a great conduit towards interpersonal connections and I think that's how we get there. That's how we get to the health, the happiness and the longevity. We create deeper and more nurturing connections and community and I think that's what's been really scientifically proven to have the most connection to happiness.
Speaker 1:How do you, how does society get in the way of us forming those connections? Because today I feel like people are a lot more isolated than they were, say, when I was growing up. You will see kids all over the place. When I was growing up you would hear the neighborhood. Now you don't. So how do you think that's the impact that society has on the connections that people?
Speaker 2:I mean we're more isolated than ever. Right, we're more isolated with our devices. Look, you know I'm not a big religious guy, but people used to be more religious, which means they would gather every Saturday or Sunday with their communities and be together. We've become a much more secular and divided nation. Does that mean the answer is to invest in religion again? I don't know, but what it does mean is that we used to come together more, we used to need each other more and we used to not be able to be as isolated.
Speaker 2:Society has changed. You now can get food delivered to your door, they can drop it on your doorstep and you don't even have to see anyone. You can pay on your app. You don't have to call them, you don't have to talk to someone on the phone. You can do it all online, and so we are separating from other people. Even more important.
Speaker 2:Why little P purpose matters now? Because we need that reason to get out in the world and connect with people. It doesn't have to be in person. You can do it online, although I think in-person connections are more important. But we have to have those interests, those things that light us up, that naturally pull us towards other people.
Speaker 2:Look, my little P purpose is podcasting. I've met hundreds and hundreds of people over the last few years because of it. Some of those people have become my collaborators. Some of those people have become my teachers. Some of those people have become my students. I've accomplished so much because I've gotten help from those people, because I created a community around my little P purpose and that community now nurtures me and now when I'm going out into the world and I write a book, I can call in that community and they help me and support me. That's happiness. That's as close as you get. That's fulfillment. And you know what it also is.
Speaker 2:Everyone criticizes little P-Purpose because they say big P-Purpose is how I'm going to have impact and legacy. But let me tell you, by practicing little P-Purpose, by connecting other people, we are touching the people around us and it is affecting the world. It's spreading out the butterfly effect. I help you, I connect to you, I teach you something and you go out in the world, become a different person and affect all the people around you. And that's impact, that's legacy.
Speaker 2:That's how our legacy remains even long after we die, because the people we touch and change the communities we form, like a ripple in the ocean spreads out and all those people take the goodness they got from you and pass it on to other people. And we know this, you know this innately, because we all have like a grandfather or great uncle or someone who taught us something and we hold it dear today still, and when we go out in the world and we're extra kind to someone or extra helping to someone or teach someone something, it was all because that great uncle or that great grandfather, that person taught it to us. And although that person died a long time ago and no one's mentioned their name for the last year, their legacy, their impact, their purpose remains in your actions and those acts of kindness and those things you pass on to future generations. That's little P purpose, that's legacy, that's impact.
Speaker 1:It's so funny being somebody that works from home. This resonates with me because I know that if I don't get up in the morning, go to the gym, I'm going to miss my community, I'm not going to see interactions with people, you know, or if I don't, I'm actually joined a few, actually joined a weightlifting team, just so I can be around people, can I?
Speaker 2:tell you that's more important than the six pack abs. That's more important than the huge biceps. That's more important than the six pack abs. That's more important than the huge biceps. We all do these things because we're like. I want to be like that influencer, that YouTuber who has six pack abs and who's lifting weights and who's talking about living a great life and getting back to all that's important and doing all the things they're supposed to do with their daily routine. It's not about that. It's about going to the gym and those people who become your support and your reliance, those people you connect to, those people that one day you walk into the gym and you'll have a bad day and someone will put their hand on your shoulder and it'll help. That's actually what you want. That's happiness. It's not the six-pack abs, it's not living the perfect life, it's not meeting the hashtag goals.
Speaker 1:It's the people. Okay, now let's segue from talking about connections and then talk about the relationship you have with yourself. What role does purpose have when it comes to you, comes to your personal identity?
Speaker 2:So I think our identity is made up of the same things that make up happiness. It's meaning and purpose. Our identity is made up of the stories we tell a runner you become a runner when you get out and run. You can write a book, but you become an author when you sit down and write, and so our identity is based on those actions. It's what we do. It's who we become. You don't become the person you want to become by meeting a goal. You become the person you want to become by doing the thing that lights you up. That could be running, it could be writing, it could be lifting weights, it could be doing whatever you're doing, but it's about action. Remember, purpose is about present and future. It's about action. Your identity flows into your actions. You do what you do because you hold the values you hold and the things that are important to you are what's important to you. That's all identity based, and it flows into your purpose, your daily actions.
Speaker 1:I think I said something like that in my video I posted today around pursuing goals, and it's not necessarily the outcome, but it's the process, the journey, the process and the transformation that happens along.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing we got to stop putting so much weight in the goals. I like goals, I have no problems with goals, but it's when you're doing the thing that you become the person, not when you reach the goal. I want to say that again it's when you're doing the thing that you become the person, not when you reach the goal 100.
Speaker 1:Hey, I completely agree. It's funny when people just talking about connections. When people build relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, they typically want to share parts of who they are, share their activities with each other. It's not about if we're getting the wrong message. On the internet, there's a lot of guys saying that you need to have a yacht, you need to have the money, you need that. This, this is which, this is what women want. You and you exchange sex for money.
Speaker 2:That's all people talk about on the internet and it's uh, it's a shitty message, shitty message yeah, I think when, when you take someone you care about and you bring them along on an activity that you are deeply engaged in, that lights you up, they get to see you as your best self, and that's a gift. It's more a gift, the gift, than the thing or the vacation or even the experience. What they're seeing is the most unique and pure version of you and that's your gift. It sounds hokey, but that's your gift. That's the most important special thing you have to give is to let people see you being your best you and the way you do. That is little P purpose. Bring them along when you're doing something that's deeply important, and when you are a parent and you do that with your kid, you are giving them permission and modeling that when they get older they can deeply engage in what feels purposeful to them.
Speaker 1:Great, awesome, awesome man. It's funny. I just finished remodeling my home and I've been telling people at the gym like hey, let me get your number. I'm going to be throwing social gatherings at my place. People just can hang out, get to know each other, et cetera, and I wasn't conscious of it. But it's like, you're right, I'm building that community, I'm building those connections yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what's important. I saw a talk once when I went to a conference and the guy loved the gym and he would get up every morning at five and go to the gym. And there was this group of people who always were there at five. And he's like these people like working out and they like getting up early. These must be my kind of people. So what did he do? Once a week he would walk around to the gym at five in the morning whenever he was working out and invite them all to lunch. And at first a few people showed up and sometimes it was the same people and sometimes it was different people, but eventually he had a crowd of people who were just like him showing up to lunch and they could talk about working out, they could talk about getting up early, they could talk about their myriad interests and he just created a community out of nowhere. That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing. We'll see. We'll see what I can do. I'm curious in your experience, when you're working with people who are on their dying bed, are you still in the same position?
Speaker 2:what do you mean? Yes, I still work as a hospice doctor. I don't see as many patients as I used to, but I still work as a hospice doctor.
Speaker 1:For the people who did not pursue their purpose. What stories did they tell? Yeah, what was the stories that those told for the people?
Speaker 2:They always told themselves the same story I never had the energy, courage or time to do the thing that was important to me. And now I'm on my deathbed and I really regret it. And so my job as a hospice doctor and the social worker and the chaplain is to come in and help them come to terms with the fact they never did what was important to them. It's kind of sad, it's kind of frustrating, right? Because what happens when you have a regret but you don't have agency to change that? It's disappointment. That's what people feel disappointment. What happens when you have regret and you have time and agency to change it, when, instead of dying, you are young, that's just a purpose anchor, that's a great place to start building a life of purpose, and so on people's deathbeds. A lot of times we talk about what they regret not having the energy, courage or time to do, and our job is to help them come to terms with that and accept it and realize that life is imperfect and come to terms with their life. But I would much rather have you do that at the age of 50. And so when you one day do meet a doctor like me at your bedside, you won't be able to say you regret these things because you gave it your best and tried. Maybe you succeeded, maybe you failed, but you had the courage and time and energy to try.
Speaker 2:And that's my goal. You want to have a good death. You want to have a peaceful death. You want to have a calm death. You got to have a peaceful, calm and good life. And the way you do that is you pursue purpose. You ask yourself what's important to you and you pursue it. You don't put it off, you don't ignore it, you don't get too afraid. You pursue it. You take these anchors, these things that feel important to you, and you build a life of purpose around them. That's it. You want to die happy. You got to live happy.
Speaker 1:Did you ever speak to somebody who didn't chase purpose, but then they did later on in life, like in their 40s?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, All the time. All the time, In fact, I'll tell you, we get people on their dime bed and we still try to help them pursue purpose If we can. If their purpose was, uh, you know, if their purpose was, uh, to go to one last football game, we try to get them there. Or we try to have a sports star come to their bedside and chat with them for a while, or, you know, we always try to meet that purpose. So if a 75 or 80 or 85 year old can start pursuing purpose on their deathbed, you certainly can at 40 and 50 and 60 and 70. It's never too late. Purpose is abundant and the truth of the matter is it's relatively easy. You just need a little bit of a roadmap how to get there, and that's why I wrote the purpose code. It's a roadmap how to take something really ephemeral, something that people have trouble understanding, and make it tactile, something you can work with and build.
Speaker 1:What were the stories? I mean, what are the stories that you hear for people who do suddenly find purpose in their 40s or 50s, I think? I just think that that would be helpful to a lot of people who feel lost. Like what is it? What is it that gets them?
Speaker 2:All you got to do is find someone who looks like they love what they're doing, even if they're not being paid for it, and it's a perfect example. Here's a great example. My wife used to like buying purses and she used to like buying purses on eBay because you can get some really good deals, and she liked coach purses. Here's the problem there are a lot of fakes and there are a lot of knockoffs, and so if you're seeing a coach purse online, you're not sure is that a fake or a knockoff, or is it? You know the real thing? Well, guess what? There's this guy who used to work for coach, who's now retired, and if you take a picture of that purse on eBay and send it to him, he'll look closely at the picture, find the serial number, so look at the design, and he'll authenticate it online. And he does it for free. You don't pay him for it. He does it out of a unique and genuine interest. That is a person who's pursuing purpose, someone who left their job at a later age and said I can still do this thing. That's important to me and I'm going to do it for free because I enjoy it. Look around for anyone doing something they love, who does it just to do it, who's not looking to change the world or fix the thing or isn't looking to have notoriety, but they're just quietly doing things that seem to light them up. That's little P purpose. We see people doing it at all stages of life. You see little kids doing it before they've even thought a career, when they're just out there playing. You see, occasionally, people doing it in their job, where they do something that's so passionate that they just want to do it 24-7 and never want to go home. And we definitely see it in retirees who leave their work and find something they love.
Speaker 2:Fritz Gilbert writes a blog called Retirement Manifesto. Worked in corporate America, was extremely successful, retired, was writing a blog. His wife started making fences for dogs in Appalachia because if there was no fence they would basically chain the dog up and they called it Freedom for Fido and they created this community of animal lovers who go around and build fences for these homes so that these dogs don't need to be chained up and can run around free. Fritz has made so many friends doing this with his wife. They often meet on weekdays for happy hour. They get a bunch of people together. This has become his life, his joy. This lights him up every day and he didn't even think about doing this until he was in his sixties and retired from his job. Purpose is everywhere. It's abundant. You just have to have the courage to go out and find things you like doing and build.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I want to know a little bit more about your story. Have you always been a person of purpose?
Speaker 2:I could have done a million things. I think I would have loved to be a radio personality Like I love interviewing people. I'd love to have done a news show. Something like that fits me a lot more than being a doctor did. But at the time it felt very purposeful and exciting until it didn't. But then I had to have the courage to leave medicine and start building a life of things that seemed more fitting for me, and I always knew I had an inkling. I loved writing. I was writing blogs since 2005.
Speaker 2:When I was in the middle of work, I would take my lunch break to write, or late at night when the kids were sleeping, I was always trying to do more public speaking.
Speaker 2:I had these inklings, these things that I loved, but I always told myself well, you can't do that for a living, that's a hobby. Being a doctor is what you do for a living. So I always had these things. But I had to realize that I could step away from medicine which thankfully I could because I had planned extensively financially and then could start developing these other things in my life. That really lit me up in a way that being a doctor never did. I hated hanging out in the doctor's lounge, I hated telling people what I did for a living because I had an embarrassment, because that identity being a doctor maybe fit me on the outside, but it didn't feel like my insides. Now that I'm a writer and podcaster and people ask me what I do for a living, I get so much pride saying I'm an author because it fits me, it connects, and so we have to have the courage to really ask ourself who we want to be and what's important to us, and then pursue it.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome, I'm just trying, I'm relating it to myself. Um, I've done so many different things in my life. We spoke about this in the last show. Um, we literally just had. Uh, this past weekend we went to um, our all of my teammates from college. They flew in not all of them, but a good number of them flew in. We went to the football game and I was thinking like man, people call me a dork. Now I'm the dork, I'm the geeky guy, but at some point in time people called me the jock. You know, and it's like you're always evolving, you're always changing your identity, you're always purpose is always changing and as you're chasing different purposes, you're always transitioning to the next phase or a different person.
Speaker 2:But here's what I love about that story. So when you were younger and today your purpose anchor was sports, back then it was playing sports. But at some point you decided either I'm done with this career or it's not going to go as far as I want, or it's not fulfilling me anymore. Either way, at some point you walked away from it. But it doesn't mean that purpose anchor is any less important to you. You still build a life of purpose around that, but instead of playing the sport, now you're meeting up with the people you used to play with. Now you're going to games. Now maybe you're joining clubs or interacting with other people around sports of the teams you like.
Speaker 2:So you've taken that purpose anchor and the activities around that purpose, purpose anger, have evolved, but it's still important to you. It's still who you are. You don't become a jock by making it to the NFL or the NBA or the MLB. You become a jock by doing the thing. You become a sports fan by getting involved in those communities. That's what you've done. It's actually. You've been consistent. Your purpose anchor has been relatively consistent. You've just changed the activities around it based on where you are in life.
Speaker 1:Great point, great, great point. It's funny I joined um. When I joined the team I told the coach. I said look, I've been competing my whole life. I do not want to gain 50 pounds for a sport. I was like I just want to look good and be around the guys. That's all I've told him yeah, man, look I.
Speaker 2:I interviewed on my podcast the other day marcus colston. Right, he worked, he was in the uh saints. He was a pretty successful wide receiver.
Speaker 2:I remember and so I interviewed him on my podcast. And what is he doing now? He's's an entrepreneur, a venture capitalist, and what does he fund? Sports related businesses. So his activities have changed. He used to be an athlete, but the anchor is the same he loves sports, he loves the collegiality, he loves working on the team. The purpose, anchor is the same. It's just the activities, the life of purpose he's built around them has changed based on where he is in life now.
Speaker 1:I never thought of that man. I never thought of that. I was a big-time basketball player football. Then I competed in boxing, karate, and I'm still competing in sports. It's just my, I want to say my definition around it has changed, the meaning around it has changed, but I'm still involved in it in some kind of way. Yeah, it's important to you.
Speaker 2:And so here's the beauty of that it doesn't matter how fit you are and it doesn't matter how old you are. You will always have that as a purpose anchor, and that may look like different things in different seasons of your life, but if it lights you up and if you show up to these things as your best self, you're going to create communities, you're going to connect to people and it's going to be valuable.
Speaker 1:It's going to bring you happiness in the end, Do you think? When it comes to having a purpose anchor, I want to ask I have two more questions for you. When it comes to having a purpose anchor, is it important to have a partner that has a similar anchor to you? No, not at all. Okay.
Speaker 2:Not at all. So relationships come in so many flavors. So some relationships come in a flavor where some people have the same excitement, joy and purpose anchors, and then other relationships come where people do different things and so they spend Saturday together but then on Sunday one does one hobby and one does the other. Hobby Depends who you are and it depends on the agreements within the relationship. But I don't think that that has to be so. I think you can have different communities, you can have different interests. Hopefully you have some shared and some different, like there's some things you love doing together and there's some things you love doing apart, and I think that's a nice balance.
Speaker 1:What about? Okay, I want to know about your coaching business. What do you do and how do you help? Yeah, how do you help people?
Speaker 2:So I come. I basically get a lot of people who come to me who feel incredibly lost, have a lot of purpose anxiety. A lot of times they've actually getting to where they want to be financially but they don't know what they mean, what it means. Maybe they're stuck in a career which they like but they don't love and they're contemplating leaving that career or pursuing some version of purpose, but they don't know what that looks like in their life. So a lot of times what I do is I spend about half the time looking at meaning and trying to convince themselves that they're enough, regardless of what they do in the future. And once we get past that, then we start looking at their purpose anchors, identifying them, and then I show them how they can build a life of purpose around those anchors. So what I call that building process, I call it the climb right, and so we want to take our purpose anchors and build a series of climbs.
Speaker 2:Depending on how busy you are in your life, you may be involved in one or two climbs at any given time. You might be involved in five or 10. It all depends on how big they are and how time consuming, but the idea is use those purpose anchors to build these climbs and to live a fulfilling life. And a lot of people don't know how to do that. Like I said, they have this vision in their head, that purpose is supposed to be this big, important thing, but they don't know how to get there. So I help people get there. But a big part of getting there is realizing that the sense of meaning is off and they have to first understand what enough looks like in their life.
Speaker 1:Jordan, any closing statements at the end of the show? Anything you want to leave our guests, our watchers with.
Speaker 2:Purpose is abundant, it is not scarce, and so I want to leave everyone with that. Purpose is abundant and you can have it in your life and it doesn't need to be high stakes and it doesn't need to be stressful. And if I can leave you with that, I think I've accomplished my goal.
Speaker 1:Okay, jordan, thanks for being here To our listeners, our watchers. Check out the book Purpose Code. When is it actually going to be in Amazon? When can we purchase this book?
Speaker 2:So it's available now on Amazon, but the book drops. It'll actually arrive at your house on January 7th.
Speaker 1:Okay, Awesome, Everybody check out the book Purpose Code. Keep an eye out for it. Jordan, thank you for coming on to the show. This is our second time doing it. I look forward to the third man. We always have great conversations.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast. Have a good one, take care.
