Philosophy for Life
Welcome to the Philosophy for Life podcast, hosted by Darron Brown, where we explore the profound questions and timeless wisdom that shape our existence. Join us on a journey of self-discovery and intellectual exploration as we delve into the depths of philosophy, spirituality, ethics, and the human experience. Through thought-provoking discussions, engaging interviews, and insightful analysis, we seek to unravel the mysteries of life and uncover the underlying truths that guide us. Discover practical insights and philosophical perspectives that can enrich your daily life, challenge your perspectives, and inspire personal growth. Whether you're a curious seeker, a deep thinker, or simply someone passionate about understanding the complexities of our world, Philosophy for Life is your gateway to wisdom and enlightenment. Subscribe now and embark on a transformative quest to gain clarity, find purpose, and embrace the profound beauty of existence.
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Philosophy for Life
Navigating Entrepreneurship: From Burnout to Balance with Long-Term Entrepreneur Tara Wagner
Ever hit that wall after years of grinding away at your business, eyes blurred, mind overwhelmed, wondering if it's all worth it? Tara Wagner, a long-term entrepreneur, has been there too. As our guest, she shares her journey, from burnout to balance, and all the wisdom she gathered along the way. With decades of experience and a refreshingly candid approach to business, Tara's insights are an entrepreneur's survival guide.
We journey through the fascinating world of entrepreneurship, navigating the highs and lows that come with running your own business. Tara encapsulates the essence of overcoming self-doubt during non-profitable periods and the importance of personal development for nurturing a healthy mindset. Glean invaluable advice on prioritizing tasks, implementing 'gamification' for productivity, and maintaining that crucial equilibrium between work and personal life.
As we explore the importance of thorough market research and strategic focus for business growth, Tara highlights the power of connections, content, and advertising avenues. We wrap up this enlightening conversation by discussing the profound impact you can make by simply being your best self. So, gear up to redefine your work-life balance, overcome burnout, and reignite your entrepreneurial spirit with Tara Wagner.
Picture a rubber band going around the two of you and there will be times in the relationship where one of you is pulling forward and what's gonna end up happening is you will get that tension between you and two things are gonna happen Either that tension is gonna break, which means that relationship Just could not sustain the change that was happening, or that tension is gonna force them forward. Whether they like it or not, they're gonna, you know, go along with you. I would go forward five, ten steps and he would pull against it and like no, I'm not ready, I'm not ready. But the more that I was just like you know what he'll catch up when he catches up, the faster he would catch up.
Darron Brown:Have an interesting show for you today. Our next guest, tara Wagner, is a long-term Entrepreneur. She's been an entrepreneur for over two decades and she specializes in helping entrepreneurs build the business. Not only does she help entrepreneurs build their business, she helps entrepreneurs manage the stress that comes with building the business and also the stress that comes with managing a business While being in a relationship, and, if not handled correctly, it can negatively impact your relationships as well.
Darron Brown:Now, before we get into the show, over 90% of you guys are not subscribed to channel. Hit the subscribe button and turn on your notification bell. Also, if you're listening on any of the streaming networks, make sure you follow us and give us a five star review. Anyways, my name is Duran Brown and this is the podcast philosophy for life. Okay, so, tara, you know I've been checking out your channel and the film that I get is is that you're you're kind of unique entrepreneur coach. You kind of focus more on the I want to say like the spiritual, healthy type of side people who their mental well-being. One of the constant go ahead was that.
Tara Wagner:I was just saying, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it, for sure.
Darron Brown:It's something I constantly heard on your page was like burnout. So because you mentioned so many times, I'm guessing that you went through burnout Probably more than once and I want to know like how did you handle burnout when you first went through your Entrepreneurial journey? Because I'm pretty much at this stage in my journey now. So I'm sure that you could have some healthy advice from me.
Tara Wagner:Well, and I'll be honest, today's, like so many people are going through burnout right now because the world is just hectic, crazy. There's the news cycles, there's life, there's. You know, we just got through the pandemic that put an intense strain on people, and when you don't have skills to Kind of down, regulate your nervous system, you're gonna be more apt to burnout. And if you're an entrepreneur, you've got more on your plate. Your mind is constantly going. You were always on.
Tara Wagner:So, yes, I burned out hard. How did I deal with it? I cried a lot, I curled up in a ball, I I thought there was something wrong with me. This was the first time. This was after eight years in business. I was so burned out I actually created a lot of the health conditions that I still deal with today because I Drove my body into the ground.
Tara Wagner:Because that's the good advice, right? That's what people say you have to do if you want to be successful. And so, yes, I do things very differently than a lot of other business coaches, for that matter. I think that a Lot of people are not taking into account their values when they are Are deciding how to spend their time or what kind of business they want to build and if you don't take into account your values and what success means to you, you're gonna end up doing what the rest of the world is doing, which is grinding non-stop or trying a bunch of different things because somebody said it's popular and you got to be on Instagram, you got to be on tiktok, and it might not be right for you, it might not be right for your audience, it might not be right for your business. There's just too many things you could be doing that will lead to burnout if you're not very mindful about your choices.
Darron Brown:You know who the king of that is is a Gary.
Tara Wagner:I do I.
Darron Brown:Was watching him yesterday and I think he said Posts make eight posts a day on all social media Platforms. Eight posts a day. And I was thinking like I'm already overwhelmed with the amount that I already post on the social. Yeah, I use buffer to help me schedule everything, but I was like man, how do you think of eight things a day?
Tara Wagner:You know, yeah, what people realize is that Gary V is some weird superhuman and most people cannot do that or cannot Sustain that for a long period of time. You might be in the honeymoon phase of your business and be so amped up and like, yeah, I've got tons of ideas, I'm gonna just crank this out, I'm gonna put it everywhere, and then after a couple years You're like I can't sustain this because as a business owner, you are not just an influencer. Your whole business is not just social media. You have clients. You might have products that you are creating or trying to produce, you've got bookkeeping, you've got admin, you've got a team that you're trying to manage, so you've got all of these other things.
Tara Wagner:Social media Should be a tool that we use to help us grow our business, but in most businesses it is not the business itself, it is one, one Marketing avenue that somebody can choose. And it doesn't even have to be the one that you choose, because I tell I people really don't, some people really don't like when I say this, but Social media is still pretty new. There's a lot of businesses out there that still are growing great. I know six, seven, eight figure businesses that are not on social media or barely on social media, because there's still other ways to build the business. So if it works for you, fantastic. If it doesn't work for you, find another option, because it doesn't have to look a certain way.
Darron Brown:Great advice. You know, one of the things that I hear is why I don't hear a lot is Sacrifice of her. People say, yeah, you have to sacrifice your friends, you have to sacrifice your hobby, you have to put a lot more time into your business Business those are the worst things to sacrifice those and those are things that keep you above water.
Tara Wagner:Exactly, I don't know fill your cup so that you have energy to give back to your business or your clients.
Darron Brown:Exactly that rejuvenates you. You know, gary V, just because, oh, you know, I was just thinking as you were speaking. He talks a lot about hustling, but I do know that he had a divorce recently, so I know that he doesn't really go into detail about it, but I'm pretty sure that his hustle mindset has impacted his business on some, me Is has impacted his marriage on some level. I don't have. I couldn't.
Tara Wagner:I mean, when I was at the worst of my burnout, our marriage was suffering like we were. We've been together now for 23 years, so at the time, we were together for about eight years and we were struggling because if I was not working, I was tired or my mind was still at work, I was cranky, I wasn't present, I wasn't investing in that relationship. Relationships take work, and so you know I talk about the entrepreneurs dilemma, which is like Family, friends, fitness, sleep, your health choose three of them. Right, and that's how most of us feel. It's like.
Tara Wagner:How do I choose between all these things that are important to me? And the thing is is that, yes, you will make sacrifices, but they should not be again. They shouldn't be your values, it shouldn't be your relationships. Yeah, you might sacrifice a hobby, or do less of it. You might sacrifice. You know, instead of Picking up the kids every day from school, I'm gonna trade off with another parent, or there's little things like that that you can sacrifice. You should definitely sacrifice Bad habits. Those should be sacrificed first, but when it comes to the things that that feed you and that keep you whole, again I go back to what's your definition of success?
Tara Wagner:My definition of success is not divorce, it's not family counseling, it's not being sick. My definition of success is flexibility, it's freedom, it's great experiences with people that I love. I, you, I can have that and have a successful business. It just gets to look a different way and it does not like. Gary V is great for some people, like if you are loving Gary V right now, if he is filling your cup and keeping you going, fantastic. The only thing that I would say is Make sure that you look at whoever you are looking at. Make sure you look at their life and their values and ask yourself Is that the result that I want? Is that the definition of success that I want? Because if it's not, then don't emulate the person.
Darron Brown:You know, gary V does pump me up, you know. Yeah, I'm thinking like last week I was actually when he did say you make these eight posts a day and I've been doing a pretty good job at. What I like to do is I like to both create, put things like months ahead, and then every week I just create one one and it keeps me balanced. But I was actually trying to, I Was doing something and I felt like, as I was actually creating content, I felt myself get overwhelmed and I like when I and I know when I get overwhelmed because I get Hungry, I start wanting to get food, beef, jerky, any kind of like snack that I can get on. I just to keep to feel me. And then I just registered to me like when I get to that stage, I know that I need to slow down.
Tara Wagner:Yeah.
Darron Brown:I'm curious, like what kind of? Because you said you hit your burnout eight years down the road. Like how long did it take your business to actually become profitable to a point where you can leave?
Tara Wagner:That business. That business was always my full-time job and it was never. It was burning out probably. I started burning out probably about five and a half or six years in and kept pushing for a few Few more years. I was a mobile massage therapist. For the last year I closed down the business and just saw my own clients and I couldn't even maintain that. I was so burnt out. The Cush yeah.
Darron Brown:I am.
Tara Wagner:I am Hmm. Repeat the question again.
Darron Brown:I wonder. I want to know how long it took you to be profitable. But you said you weren't. It said that you weren't really that profitable. So I'm wondering what? What kept you going that?
Tara Wagner:was the dream, it was the idea of you know, well, this is just what it takes, like you just put in the time and the energy and you put the money back into the business and and you, you wait for that. Someday, you know it's gonna, it's gonna explode, it's gonna. You know it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, but it doesn't like. If you don't, you should be profitable. In my opinion, you should be profitable within your first year, if not early in your first year. I, I, um that book by Michael can remember his last name, profit first, where he talks about the importance of taking a profit from your business from day one, because if you don't give yourself something, if you're not filling your cup, you're going to burn out.
Tara Wagner:Now, does that, at times, need to change? Are there times where you will put the profit back into the business to grow it? Yes, that should be for a short period of time. Or is there times where you decide to? Um, you know, if you are not taking that profit or, excuse me, if you are taking that profit, you might move a little bit slower because you're not reinvesting it back in the business. But slow and sustainable is always going to be better than than crashing yourself right into a wall. So for me, like my first business never got to be profitable, I burnt out. I couldn't sustain it. My next business I learned very quickly Like that was I. Just I was like I can't do that again, mostly because of the dark night of the soul that that puts you through, because it changes your perception of who you think you are. You go into it like I've got this, I can do it, and then you're like well, crap, I can't. What's wrong with me? Everybody else can do it, I can't die.
Darron Brown:Okay, so your second business, your second business, that profitable.
Tara Wagner:Oh yeah.
Darron Brown:Okay so right now.
Tara Wagner:I run a multi six figure business and I work between five and 20 hours a week, and the whole business was designed around my values and my freedom. I could I could potentially be making more right now, if I just wanted to put more into it. I'm taking my time Like I'm pacing myself because I am working according to my values. I'm I'm at my level of success right now and I'm moving at the pace I want to move. That honors my health, that honors my family, that honors my other goals.
Darron Brown:How long did it take you? Because I started a business, I'm my profession, I'm a software engineer, I'm a masters in IT and I love, I love coding. So my first business I was making money but I couldn't live off of it. But I'm wondering I've kind of pivoted since then and I'm wondering how long did it take you to really learn how to find your target audience? Because a lot of times you think the people who are going to be interested in your program aren't the people who are going to be interested.
Darron Brown:So how did how? When did you really get that? Develop the skill to find your target audience.
Tara Wagner:Like I said, I've been in business for 23 years.
Tara Wagner:Probably after 15 years, I mean, I really it took me a long time to really learn and understand the mechanics of building a business plan.
Tara Wagner:Right now it's so easy to start a business. You think about 20, 30 years ago you probably had to have a full written business plan, go to a bank, take out a loan and start that business that way, and so to do that you had to have some skill, you had to have some training, you had to have some understanding, you had to know how to create a business plan that a banker was going to take seriously. Now you can start a business with like 35 bucks. So, because of the barrier that barrier of entry is so low people can start it with just an idea, and the thing that I learned very quickly is that your ideas mean absolute crap because you're not the one buying your product or service. So one of the first things that I have entrepreneurs do if they're burning out, if they're not burning out, if they're just starting their business, I make them do market research, because if they don't get out and start talking to their ideal client right away, they're building a business plan on something that may never float.
Darron Brown:That's great advice. That was just about to ask you about market research and just the example that you gave of businesses back in the day. They had to do all of that research. They had to do market research, they had to put together a plan and really understand their audience to get that loan in the first place. So that makes a lot of sense. They pretty much got to that stage before they even started the business. Yeah.
Tara Wagner:I mean, there was so much work that they did before they began and now we think of okay, I'm hanging my shingle, I'm starting my business, but we don't do that work or we do it in piece meals.
Tara Wagner:You know, like we have an aha moment here and there over three to five years and then it takes us so long to become profitable and it's just because we're missing foundational pieces that a lot of people don't teach, that a lot of people don't even know. You know a lot of business coaches out there are teaching what they stumbled across and they got lucky and you know they're repeating it to someone else, but they don't know how to actually teach this stuff in a down to earth, practical way. Because, let's be honest, none of us wanted to go to business school Like we just want to start a business. We don't want to be like experts at business, but we do need those foundational skills. We need to understand. You know what is the most practical way that I can do market research, so that I'm not wasting three to five years of trial and error, which is essentially what most people are doing, because they don't have that initial market research?
Darron Brown:Yeah, they stand there for way too long when they should have pivoted. It probably, like you said, like after the first year. I remember listening to one of your videos and I believe you spoke about the stages of burnout. Could you go over those?
Tara Wagner:Oh gosh, I don't even know if I could have. I could pull those out of my head right now. Hold on, let me pull up my notes.
Tara Wagner:I know that the first one most definitely is the honeymoon stage, because that is where we all start. We're super excited, we're like we want to just go, go, go. We want to do all the things. We are so happy we are willing to do. You know, pull these 16 hour days, but that is always the first stage of burnout, because that's where we drain our cup, that's where we empty ourselves and we forget to take care of ourselves so that we are not, you know, winding down that same path that everybody else goes through.
Darron Brown:Okay, that's the first stage. Is there any other?
Tara Wagner:There are, but I cannot pull them out of my head and I'm trying to find my notes on them.
Darron Brown:That's fine, that's fine. One of the things that I'm really that I'm wondering is that, during this burnout stage and when you're not being profitable, how do you conquer doubt, like, what things did you do to get over your doubt?
Tara Wagner:I had to do a lot of mindset work. I actually started as a coach. As a mindset coach because when I burnt out so many of my business problems, my burnout problems were mindset related. It was because of the way that I was thinking about marketing. It was the way that I was thinking about asking for support, or whether or not I should ask for support. I had it in my mind that if I was successful, or if I was going to be successful, I had to figure it out myself that asking for help that meant I couldn't be successful. So there was so much mindset work that I did that.
Tara Wagner:When I closed my first business, I spent two or three years just personal development, just licking my wounds, healing my own thoughts and beliefs about myself, about business, about money, about all of these things, because all of those conscious or unconscious beliefs that's what's going to direct our energy and our attention and our focus and the actions that we take. You're not going to be able to charge appropriately. My first business I was not charging appropriately because of my thoughts around money. So being able to heal all of those things, that was the biggest piece of the puzzle.
Darron Brown:Based off that answer, I'm guessing that you weren't charging enough. That's what I you weren't charging enough to live off of, basically no.
Tara Wagner:I was not charging enough. I was paying my contractors too much because I wasn't charging enough, so I had to give them a bigger cut than you could live off of. And then everything else was going to business expenses. And I just now, it's so obvious to me. Now I look at it and I'm like duh, the numbers are just not there. How did I expect this to lead to this? Without you know what I mean? There's so many obvious things, but when you're in the thick of it, and especially with newer business owners, you don't see that stuff. Like you are so blinded by all of the details, you're so overwhelmed by all of the activity that's going on and all the things you need to do, that the stuff that is going to make the biggest difference right in front of you. But you cannot see that because you're just in a state of overwhelm.
Darron Brown:You know you mentioned you did a lot of mindset work For me. I'm really big on self-development books. I buy a lot of self-development books. I'm really big on spirituality, the universe, how our thinking affects our outcome. What kind of what books did you read specifically that helped you? If you could just name a few like your best, your favorite one, you know what was my favorite one that nobody would ever expect.
Tara Wagner:It's called nonviolent communication. It's about communicating. It's about how we connect with other people outside of the behavior, outside of the action, the reaction. It's about understanding how am I feeling and what am I needing, and how is that changing how I'm acting or reacting? Right, so if somebody's procrastinating, I get a lot of people come to me and they're like I just struggle with procrastination, I want to do the thing, I'm excited to do the thing, and then it comes down to do it and I find anything else to do. Why am I doing that? Well, okay, let's look at. That's the external, that's the behavior. What's underneath that? How are you feeling before that? What kind of emotions are coming up as you sit down to think about it? Or as you think about, once you do it, what will happen? And then what are those emotions telling you about your underlying needs? So here's a great example.
Tara Wagner:I had a gal who she wanted to be more visible on social media. She wanted to put more of her story into her posts. But she had actually been through a trauma years before of somebody who had stolen her identity, like stolen her ID and made threats against her and her family. So she was very uncomfortable putting herself and her family on social media, even though all of the best advice was saying like this is, and it was good advice. This would have been a good thing for her business, but her underlying needs for safety and security were screaming at her not to do this.
Tara Wagner:So she was sitting here being told by other mindset coaches that she has a block, that she's got some belief saying that she can't do it or she can't be successful or whatever, and she's telling the reason why she has this block. And I talked to her and I'm like you know, instead of calling this a block, why don't we look at this like a need? Because safety and security is a very legitimate need. What are some ways that you can meet that need but also meet this need for growth in your business? Progress right, putting yourself out there in this way and within, literally within three minutes of understanding here's how I'm feeling.
Tara Wagner:Here's the underlying need that these behaviors are trying to meet. We could find solutions that would allow her to put herself out there in a way that felt safe for her and her business could finally start moving forward. So, like that book nonviolent communication, understanding emotions and underlying needs not wants, but needs. That, I think, is it's a huge part of my work and it's a huge part of what moved me forward, because if we I used it just to communicate with myself If we don't know how to communicate with ourself and understand why we're doing what we're doing, we're going to keep doing it.
Darron Brown:What weren't you giving yourself in your first business that you're now giving to yourself in your second business?
Tara Wagner:Oh my gosh, that's a good question. Time off. I work seven days a week, 16 hours a day. In my first business. I don't do that anymore.
Tara Wagner:I Faith permission to learn to you know if I get stuck. You know what. Somebody else already has this answer. Who can I go to for this answer? Let me take the smart path instead of just trying to DIY this for years.
Tara Wagner:Um, I you know, I think a big part of it was not so much what I gave my or what I'm giving myself permission for now, or what I'm giving myself now, but what I gave myself years ago that allowed me to finally move forward, which was let me get educated, let me build up my own sense of self, my own belief, like confidence isn't the ability or confidence isn't the belief that you can do anything, it's the belief that you can handle anything Right.
Tara Wagner:Like building up that confidence, building up that belief, skilling up, just building the actual skills behind a business, not the skills to deliver the product or service that you're you're known for, right. Everybody gets into business because they're good at something, but that doesn't make you good at business. Get skilled up at business, at data, at tracking, analytics, all of your numbers, bookkeeping, hiring, firing, managing people, managing your time, learning how to prioritize those are the skills that trip up the most people. Not the marketing, marketing matters, but even just the foundations of marketing understanding marketing so that you know how to make a marketing plan. Those, it's that foundational stuff that so many of us are missing.
Darron Brown:That's some great points. I'm curious as you were transitioning from the first to the second business, you were working 16 hours a week. How did it negatively impact your marriage? Because the reason I asked this because a lot of people who are starting their this is a common issue with people who are starting like their business either they're in a relationship or it's preventing them from even pursuing a relationship I used to think when I was I played college football, so I thought that I needed to focus on school and football. I didn't have time for a relationship. I had to focus on me, and it really wasn't the truth. You can build with somebody, but you know, sometimes we let our goals get in the way of a romantic life. Absolutely. How did you handle that?
Tara Wagner:You know, my husband's also an entrepreneur. He owns a business as well, so we have kind of a double edged sword. Also, divorce rates are highest among entrepreneurs.
Darron Brown:Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that until about a year ago and I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense, because marriage is hard, relationship let's say that relationships are hard.
Tara Wagner:And then when you add in this business, that is like a baby that keeps you up all night, that adds an element of challenge to it. You add in another business and you know, maybe one person is running two businesses. Even it gets trickier and trickier For us back in the day, we just never saw each other. We didn't go out on a date. I was too tired to function. He didn't have his own business at that time. But it was just, we were always stressed, we were always tired. I never was there for family dinner. Him and my son would have dinner all the time and I was working Like it. Just, I just couldn't shut it off. And that's partially. You know, like hyper focused, you get into that mode and you can't shut it off, and partially it's because I didn't want to shut it off. I wanted to figure this out, I was determined to make this work and I wanted to win.
Darron Brown:I wanted to win.
Tara Wagner:I'm like you, like Gary V excites me and I get all amped up with all that kind of stuff, but I have to constantly remind myself this isn't what I want. It doesn't matter if I'm in hyper focused mode, it doesn't matter if I want to keep working. How's my body feeling right now? How's my mind feeling right now? Am I giving this my best or could I, like you know, take a break, refill my cup, spend some time with other people, remember that there's a world out there. Come back tomorrow and do better. So now, after being together so long, and we both have big businesses that we're running Now, it is a very careful balance.
Tara Wagner:Neither one of us work past four. Usually I'm done long before that, but his job takes him out more, so at four o'clock we're done. There's no phones. We don't do like. The whole evening is together. We make dinner together. We have dinner together. If we watch something, we're watching something together. You know we make sure to pad in extra time together without talking about business, which is really really hard when he's married to a business coach. We talk about this a lot, but just making that time and saying, okay, this is having having the boundary and saying this is work time, this is non work time. And then, during that non work time, what are we needing? Are we needing more time together? Maybe we're needing more time apart. Maybe we need to figure out some meal prep because we're both tired and we don't want to cook. Right, like, what are some things that we can do to just make it better for us to meet our needs, whether there are health needs or relationship needs or family needs, whatever it might be?
Darron Brown:You know, one thing that stuck out to me is that you said that he was not an entrepreneur at the beginning. So right now you guys seem like you're aligned. You're aligned, you know you're on the same path, but at some point in time there had to be some level of friction. How important, how supportive was your husband, and how important is it to have the support of your spouse or girlfriend or your significant other?
Tara Wagner:That's a great question. He's always been really supportive, even when he didn't understand what was going on. So that's, that hasn't ever really been a challenge. But there have been moments along the way where it's like he didn't know how to support. It's not that he didn't want to, it's not that he didn't believe in it, but it was just like. You know, I don't get it. I don't understand why you're investing this time or this money, or you know I'm not comfortable with that or whatever it is. And there's definitely been times, less so around the business but more so around mindset, where I'm doing exponential personal growth, like I'm. I'm like in a season of just massive emotional spiritual development, and he does not understand it. I'm using new language, I'm, you know, I'm consuming books and podcasts and I'm doing all these practices and I'm changing, and that was making him very uncomfortable.
Darron Brown:That was my next question.
Tara Wagner:Yes.
Darron Brown:Because you are evolving, you're in the self-improvement. You probably wanted him to be in the self-improvement on some degree, yeah. So how was it for you, as somebody that's a high achiever, a go-getter, the Midas in self-improvement? You were with a partner that's kind of doing their own thing. Yeah, and he's not a high achiever.
Tara Wagner:He's a very laid back dude even in his business. Like he's not a, he's not a Gary Vee at all.
Tara Wagner:Very, very chill. We're a good balance. Yeah, you know I talk about it. I actually did a YouTube video on this a while back and he was actually in that video. So if anybody wants to watch it, they can search. I think if you search my name, tara Wagner and married entrepreneurs, it'll pull up.
Tara Wagner:But I talk about this idea of like, when you're in a relationship, picture a rubber band going around the two of you and there will be times in the relationship where one of you is pulling forward and what's going to end up happening is you will get that tension between you and two things are going to happen Either that tension is going to break, which means that relationship just could not sustain the change that was happening, which probably is for a good thing. That relationship probably would have broken at some point or that tension is going to force them forward, whether they like it or not. They're going to, you know, go along with you and I've always found that in my relationship I would go forward five, 10 steps and he would pull against it and like, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready, and it might create some tension. It might create some arguments you know lots of conversations or I would try to get them to listen to something. But the more that I was just like you know what he'll catch up when he catches up, the faster he would catch up. It was like he would. There would be less tension, less pulling back against whatever I was doing. If I was just like that's cool, if you're not into this, if you're not ready for that, that's okay. And if there were things that I was developing in myself that made me want to change things in our life and he wasn't ready for it again, I would go back to that nonviolent communication.
Tara Wagner:Okay, how is he feeling? What is he needing? What are some ways that I can honor his needs? Because I chose to be with this person. We're in it to win it, so we're a partnership. If he's not comfortable, he's not ready, what's the compromise? What's a way that I can meet my needs but also honor, respect and meet his needs? It's I'd never want to force, like. I always want it to be inspired, not required. But also it's marriage and sometimes you're going to want to force it and so it's just. It comes back to that communication and understanding each other's needs and being willing to sit down and figure that out together figure out what that looks like. How do I honor my needs and your needs? And that does not always happen in one conversation, like sometimes that would be weeks or months of conversations before things would really start to balance back out again.
Darron Brown:I've never experienced that in a romantic relationship, but I have experienced it with my friendships. You know as when you're changing, you're reading these books, you're putting in the extra effort, you're watching your diet, you're doing any kind of significant change.
Darron Brown:It's hard noticed and you do have friends who support you, some friends or who are you know they're on the wire, and you have other friends that are Haters, you know, and I'm wondering like I've definitely lost some friends down the road. You know, you know, you just just how you said your husband, you were five steps ahead and he caught up five steps. So some, some my friends, got with the program and other friends just became like enemies, like they, they, they compared, they're, based their personal value off of my position in life.
Darron Brown:Yeah and I'm wondering for you have you encountered any kind of issues with friends as you're pursuing your entrepreneurial self-improvement journey?
Tara Wagner:Yes, in large part because so I have a lot of health conditions. I have to be very mindful of how I treat my body. I don't stay up late, I don't party, I don't drink, I don't go out to eat all the time like all that stuff doesn't happen. We made this amazing group of friends, but slowly what we were finding was that they were going out more, they were drinking more or they wanted us to stay out late. That's just not our jam.
Tara Wagner:I loved them to death, but I had to come to a place of acceptance of they're on their journey, they're living their life, they're having the experiences that they need to have. I love them, but that doesn't mean that this is the right thing for either one of us anymore. And and some Relationships I've had to let go of. Some relationships I was able to say you know what? We're radically different people now, but that's okay. We still have this middle ground. We still have these things that we can connect around. Let's have fun with that. Some people did change, but for me, I feel like my life lesson has always been it just radical acceptance, surrender, allowing what is to be what is and focusing on what I know I need to do, which is not Something that I enjoy or find to be easy, which is why it's a life lesson for me.
Darron Brown:It's evolution. It's evolution, we all get there. It's a. It shows like you've hit a level of maturity that you need to get to basically feel healthy, or there was a lot of friction. You wanted things to be a certain way. Once you accepted it, yeah, what it was, you kind of just yeah started living.
Tara Wagner:Yeah, it's it's heartbreaking because you will lose people along the way, because business will change you or any goal you have is going to change you. It's gonna change your habits, it's gonna change your mindset, it's gonna change your interests. That's normal and natural. And you will have some people that are like, well, what happened, you changed. And you just have to be willing to say, yeah, people change, like we're supposed to grow, we're supposed to change. Maybe that's not what they're here for, at least in this season of life. That's okay. But we still have to embrace the change that we know that we're ready for, because it is a normal, natural thing. That is, the thing that sets humans apart is the fact that we are constantly Growing and developing and expanding. And you know we're. We're addicted to progress, we're addicted to moving forward. Not everybody. Some people are holding on for dear life.
Tara Wagner:Yeah but if you're moving forward, you you have to Be very mindful who you surround yourself with. Find the circles that will yes support you and and just Love and accept that not everybody's on the same path.
Darron Brown:That's very true. I've, um, I remember one of the mistakes I used to do is that, as I was improving and doing things and reading books, I'll recommend books to friends, or I would just like try to get them to Get into the things that I was into. Right, and I didn't get, I didn't get anywhere with it. You know, there's a statement, a quote that goes I got tired of trying to change my friends, so, oh, I got tired of trying to change the people I hung out with, so I changed the people I hung out with.
Darron Brown:Yeah and that's exactly what I did. I had to. I joined entrepreneurial groups. You know I'm joined programs, people, programs with other youtubers or programs with the entrepreneur, entrepreneurs yeah, and it instead of worrying about what friends and family and people on other social media apps, applications, think about me, I started just focusing more primarily on my new group, my social media group, or we were All excited about what we're posting and giving each other advice and trying to improve in that area of our life. Yeah, I'm wondering. I know that you. I took a look at your channel. You've been off of YouTube for a year now over a year, yeah.
Darron Brown:Over a year.
Tara Wagner:Okay.
Darron Brown:What have you been up to like? What's going on when you?
Tara Wagner:I've been growing my business without social media and I gotta say I really like it. I'm still active in my Facebook groups. I'm still act like my personal, the groups that I run. I'm still active in my newsletter. I'm just. I'm marketing through ads, primarily because it's simple, it's sustainable, I can outsource it, there's very little that I have to do with it and you know it's I'm loving it.
Tara Wagner:I miss YouTube. I I've been thinking lately like, yeah, I want to go back, but I will probably go back differently. I don't know if I'll go back to making a video every single week. I'd rather make you know, a video a month and just put more into one video. But at this stage I don't need it. I actually I took the time off because last year I developed long COVID and I was so sick that I could not create any more content. I just I and so at first I figured, you know, I'll just take a few months off. I'm sure I'll be feeling fine, and a few months turned into a very long time.
Tara Wagner:I'm still recovering from long COVID. I'm at the place now where I could potentially go back into it, but it would still put a strain on my system and so I'm just enjoying this slower pace and, you know, moving forward in my marketing plan. It doesn't have to. Your marketing plan is allowed to evolve as your business evolves and I think that Developing long COVID helped me to realize that I had evolved to the place where I could let go of those things. You know, I held on to them because I felt like I needed to still be visible and now I'm just like, wow, I I actually don't need to look at that. It's, it's amazing. So, yeah, I've been enjoying just the slower pace.
Darron Brown:You're one of the few entrepreneurs that at least I hear on social media that talks about how you don't need Social media to be successful. Yeah because of that, I'm kind of curious, like how do you actually, how do you remain profitable by not, you know, living by today's standards, of being on social media? Like how did you, how did you get the confidence to get off of social media? And like, what are the type of things that you're doing? Because I'm guessing you're doing things that businesses have traditionally done. Yeah, for, you know, generation.
Tara Wagner:So I'll give a crash course for anybody listening. There's three main marketing avenues that every business has to choose between. One of them is what I call connections. One is called content, which includes things like social media, and the other one is advertising. Connections is your fastest way to build your business.
Tara Wagner:If somebody's new, if somebody is building their own audience, don't waste time on social media. You can start it, that's fine, but social media is slow to build, whereas connections, which could be something like getting on podcasts or running your own podcast bringing people into it, it could be, you know, doing some sort of virtual event where other people are bringing their audience to you. It could be pounding pavement, knocking on doors, cold calling, emailing anything that puts you into connection with your ideal client in the most intimate way possible, right? So people that do a lot of outreach on Social media, like they're, you know, sliding into your DMs and talking to you about stuff, that's a form of outreach. People do it because it works. Yes, it annoys people, but it's a numbers game and if you don't care, if it annoys people, it's gonna work. So that's one method.
Tara Wagner:And connections anything having to do with connections. That's usually the place that I tell people to start if they like social media cool, start social media in the background. Just know it's gonna take some time to build that platform up until the algorithm starts working for you. And if you're doing that, you know, focus on things that are search friendly, like YouTube, because it will continue to work for you in the future. And then, when you have the opportunity, as soon as I tell people, as Soon as you have a sales funnel that you know converts, you see the data to know. For every hundred people that go through this, I can expect this many sales you start putting ads behind that and then scale it as soon as you get your ads figured out that's a process itself. Then you scale those ads.
Darron Brown:That's a lot of game because, as you were speaking, I'm just like sucking everything in. That was a crash course, that was on an entire module of marketing plans.
Tara Wagner:101 dropped in 60 seconds and it makes sense.
Darron Brown:It makes a lot of sense because I Know, I know that connection is very important and I've been reaching out to people and it's been. I Was able to get people on calls or whatnot. But, based off of what you were saying I was thinking, it made me think like, oh, that's why webinars are so powerful, because you're able to Get people on a video, you can talk to them about the issues, talk to them about whatever you're selling or you You're, or whatever, like your skill set is, and people get familiar with who you are. Yeah, I actually Like.
Darron Brown:My social media journey has not been the best. I would say YouTube. If there is an algorithm, there are certain things that you need to do. It took me years to realize that once I bought a book and I kind of follow the steps in the book, I was like, oh okay, you know, I see why it was sucking. But I kind of got lucky on Tick-tock. I hired somebody to create shorts for me.
Tara Wagner:Yeah, and.
Darron Brown:I wasn't posting on tick-tock and the guy was getting picked off and I said okay, man, I'll post. And then I had one post that got me about 17 million views and then the next day I create another post and I got 10 million views on my tick-tock. I don't know, and I think tick-tock is kind of I don't think it's for everybody, because I know people who've been on it who have better videos and I think sometimes you just get lucky or you get chosen, because now I can put whatever I want to on tiktok. I can put a completely black screen on tiktok and it just pushes yeah, all of my content. It pushes it like I can see it every day.
Darron Brown:Yeah, so it's kind of um, it's a luck game and I guess you just kind of some of it is a luck game, some of it is a skill game.
Tara Wagner:I have heard great things from tiktok. Tiktok also has a great search engine, so a lot of people are using tiktok to search, so that could be another way to show up it's. I mean, there's so many things that a person can do. You have to. Again, it goes back to what are your values, what are your goals? What's your definition of success? My definition of success is not being on my phone all the time. I used to.
Tara Wagner:I used to do a lot of photography. I was always behind the camera, never present, and then I switched out my big DSLR DSLR camera for the iPhone camera and I was always on my phone, never present. And when I finally I broke my camera one time, we were traveling at the time and I couldn't take pictures and I realized the difference in my experience. That's when I realized I don't want to be on social media. It doesn't. It doesn't work for me. Even if it was viral, I would not enjoy it, and so it always comes back to what aligns for you. And then are you willing to put in the work to figure out that platform, because there will be skills involved in that platform.
Darron Brown:Yeah, yeah, you're right. Every, every platform is different. Yeah, and I can definitely Identify with you when it comes to getting annoyed by social media, because I just noticed myself just like working in, because work is stressful itself, and then I have so many people messaging me for work and then my phone is going off so many times boundaries exact so, exactly so.
Darron Brown:What I did is I actually bought a second phone just for social media in my primary phone. I just leave that with me all the time and I check that social media phone probably once every two days or so. But it helped me clear my mind. It helped me relax, because when I wasn't relaxed I noticed that I was stressful. I noticed that I would snack a lot more. It was harder to maintain my diet. I don't know how the body works, but I noticed that with myself is that I would just start. I'll get up, leave the house and just go get like a something to snack on. That wasn't always healthy, some sugar or something.
Tara Wagner:Yeah but um stress and and how our body reacts to stress is really, really fascinating for me. I use the focus modes on the iPhone. Well, number one I don't have any social media apps on my phone anymore, unless I'm like selling something on marketplace and I need to be able to Answer messages fast. I have all of my notifications turned off. I have my Gmail app in case I need to access it or I need to check in, but I all the notifications are off on that. And then I still use focus mode just so I don't get text messages when I'm trying to do this or, you know, if I'm trying to go to sleep.
Tara Wagner:It's like we really have to draw boundaries with our devices, because devices are Intentionally designed to addict you. Like, if you've seen all those documentaries, it's creepy how well they're designed to get you to be sucked in. And as a business owner, you can't have boundaries. Like you know, if you have a somebody email you at 9 o'clock at night with a problem, you're gonna feel inclined to to solve that problem for them. Yeah, instead of just waiting until business hours.
Darron Brown:That's a great point. That's a that's a really good point. I'm curious the people who actually work with you what is the most common issue that they deal with?
Tara Wagner:Overwhelm. You know they will call it overwhelm, I will call it prioritization. They, the majority of them do not understand that prioritization is a skill that you learn and so they do not know how to say this is the number one thing I need to be doing right now. This is what comes next. These things I don't even need to look at right now and, just like, if somebody comes into my program, I have like one lesson just dedicated to let me teach you how to prioritize.
Tara Wagner:Let me teach you just a simple method where, like you, can sit down in 15 minutes a week and say here's what I'm focusing on over this next week, here's what I'm not focusing on, here's how I plan for distractions. Here's how I plan for things that you know may come up that may throw my plan out the window. Here's how I re prioritize. Essentially, like learning that skill. I'm surprised how Life-changing that one skill is for the majority of my clients. Once they master that, they can then start thinking straight. They're not so like just mentally Fatigued and scattered all over the place and they start making better decisions in other areas. They can take in what they need to take in to make the changes they need to make.
Darron Brown:I mean, it's just, yeah, I, it surprises me, it still surprises me, but I would say that's the number one thing is prioritization I can kind of relate to what they were going through, because I Know, because I'm going through it now, like I know where they had to be at. They probably felt like they had to do all, do so many different things, or they had to always keep working, keep hustling. But really when you realize once you slow down, you prioritize, everything starts to come together better and then you actually have like the analytics make more sense, you know where to put more your energy into, you know where to not put your energy into and you end up getting more done.
Tara Wagner:Yeah get more done because you learn how to focus. You know we lose so much time and energy to Jumping between all of these different tasks and projects and platforms and all the things were told we're supposed to do. But if you give yourself to the permission to just do less, I'm gonna focus on one platform. I'm gonna focus on one offer. I'm gonna focus on you know, one thing at a time. If you just give yourself permission to do that you, you regain all of that lost energy to context switching and you end up making more progress. It feels slower at first because you're working on one thing instead of ten things, but that one thing gets done faster than those ten things we're gonna get done.
Darron Brown:It's a it's not quantity as quality. When you have that one thing, even I noticed that Even with the YouTube, with my. When I first started my channel, I felt like I had to have content every day.
Tara Wagner:Yeah.
Darron Brown:I'll stress myself every weekend to put something out every day, and then I realized that because there wasn't I want to say like the, the duration between my videos and the, the combination of that with clips and shorts that was actually hurting my channel. I thought that I needed more to explode, but really what I need to do is slow down, create quality content and give the algorithm something that it could read. Yeah and potentially push my, my content to the right type of people.
Darron Brown:Yeah but you know it takes time. I'm wondering people who come to you, what stage are they at, usually within their business? Are they at the beginning stages, miss stages, or are they? Are you helping them clean up the business typically, you know it's all different stages.
Tara Wagner:I love working with different businesses from different industries, from at different stages, because I love variety. That's just one of my my values, so I've built that into my business. I get a fair amount of people who have burned out in a previous business and are starting a new one, want to do it Better. Or they've burned out just in life, you know, work or family or whatever. They're wanting to start a business, but they have to be mindful about it. They're very conscious of burnout being an issue, though.
Tara Wagner:Or I work a lot with people who are in those middle stages. They're not quite to the point where they are Feeling financially secure. They're making money, but it's just. It's not quite enough yet, and they're struggling because it's like you know, I'm already doing so much. How do I grow, how do I do more when I've only got so many hours in the day? And I'll tell you the secret to it it's not about doing more. It's about doing less, strategically, picking and choosing the right things that you're doing and letting go of some stuff that you probably do not want to let go of, simply because it's like what? Is it? Pareto's law or Parkinson's law? The 80-20 rule?
Tara Wagner:Parkinson's is it Parkinson's? I can never remember I always get those two mixed up. Yeah, so it's, it's 20% of your efforts are bringing in 80% of the results. Well, if that's the case, why not double down on the 20%, do it 40% of the time and drop the rest of it? I mean, that's, that's literally. If people can figure that out, they probably don't even need me.
Darron Brown:You know, there's a lot of talk on the internet right now about Building your personal brand and they make people feel stupid for focusing on build, trying to build their business, trying to focus on sales. Immediately they say it's kind of grimy, they's kind of slimy, but there's a lot of push to build your personal brand. You've been in business for a number of years. Where do you think people should put their focus? Should it be in building the brand of the business or should be in the building the brand of the self?
Tara Wagner:It should be in making money Period. What's gonna?
Tara Wagner:make money the fastest, even if it's imperfect, even if it's not money that you want to, like something you want to be doing forever. For instance, I have a lot of people that come in like they're their coaches or consultants or therapists or something like that, and they don't want to be doing one-on-one client work forever. They want to be doing something else. But one-on-one client work is closest to cash and they don't have cash. So that's where you start and then you can build out this other thing, like cash flow is king and in a business you don't have a business. Technically, according to the IRS, you don't have a business unless you're making money. What do you need to make money like? What do you need to make money like? Like focus on that first and then improve from there.
Darron Brown:That's great advice. I was kind of torn between um, cause I'm going to start taking TikTok more seriously. I really don't take, I really don't, I'm so lazy at it. But, um, I have a large following on it and I was thinking like man, I'm not sure how this following is going to. You know, relate to my business, but based on what you're saying, cause I've had companies reach out to me for TikTok, but what you're basically, if you're saying like, whatever is working for you, whatever God the universe gave you, put your energy into that and, you know, pay the bills.
Tara Wagner:Yeah, I what I would tell anybody if they're in that process of like. I'm creating lots of content, I'm building my audience. I don't have a revenue stream. I would pause what you're doing. Come up with a revenue stream, something that is not reliant on like. If somebody's revenue stream is YouTube ads, that's great, but that's a bonus revenue stream in my mind. Come up with a service. Come up with a product, because every single piece of your content should in some way lead to a sale, lead to a newsletter signup, which is going to lead to a sale, or it's going to promote it, or it's going to mention it, or it's going to nurture somebody who's thinking about it. You can do a lot of great value based content that is still also sales based. Do not be afraid of sales. Every email you send should have at least a little PS at the bottom. This is hey. If you want more help with this, here's where you go to get this product or this service that I offer. Like you're a business. Don't be afraid to be a business.
Darron Brown:That's great advice. You're. I'm sucking and saying I'm having. I'm torn between having the interview for the podcast and then also registering everything and applying it to my business. I want to talk about your scheduling. You mentioned in one of your videos game of firing your schedule. What do you mean by game of firing it and how does it help benefit the entrepreneur?
Tara Wagner:Game of firing your schedule. You know there's a lot of different ways you could game of firing anything, but it's really just about like, making things fun for you. So that could be different for different people. For me, yeah, I'm trying to remember which. Do you remember which video that was about, or which video that was from?
Darron Brown:Um, I don't, but I'm trying to think about what you said. You mentioned that you want to game of fire schedule because it gives you some kind of reward for doing certain things.
Tara Wagner:Yeah.
Darron Brown:On those lines.
Tara Wagner:So if somebody is struggling with um, a lot of people struggle with time management. They struggle with giving themselves a schedule and sticking to it. Right, it's easy when you have a boss saying these are the hours you're going to work. It's a lot harder when you're your own boss. So, doing something that will, that will make it fun and make it rewarding. If that means you know what I'm going to, um, get these most important income producing tasks done first, and when I do that, I'm going to go and you know, eat some gummy bears or I'm going to, you know, like whatever it is, like whatever you need to do to reward yourself. Because what ends up happening there is you're just giving yourself little dopamine hits for getting things done For me, like I've been doing this for so long. It's, it's hardwired into me.
Tara Wagner:I can't not get things done now because it's become such a habit, but gamification rewards um, anything like you know I use click up. If you mark something as done, sometimes you'll get like a little thing that flies across the screen to celebrate it. All of those are little dopamine hits. If you make a list of all the things you did that day, not yet that you're going to do, but at the end of the day you make a list of all the things you did and cross stuff off. That's a dopamine hit. So every time you do those little things, you give yourself those little dopamine hits. It makes it addictive to do the right thing, to do, the thing you know you need to do. So gamification like I use gamification in a lot of different ways it's just. It's just a matter of making life fun, right? Instead of, oh God, I sit down and do this, it's okay, I'm excited to do this, and when I do this, I'm going to celebrate with this thing. You know, I actually did that.
Darron Brown:I used to be 200 because of football. I used to be 243 pounds and I remember I struggled to lose weight and it wasn't until I gamified it. I didn't use that word, but it was. I used to wake up in the morning and I'll say okay, after I do this workout, I'll give myself this steak and as I'm working out, I'll be thinking about that steak the whole time. Yeah, I'll get you that. I was like okay, I'll just be excited as a reward to have that steak. So it does work.
Darron Brown:I needed to eat more salads, and I was just like I, just I just don't love a salad.
Tara Wagner:What's going to make this salad more fun? Steak. So every salad man got a little piece of steak. Now, because you know, you rewire your chemistry through the foods that you eat as well. Now I'm like addicted to having salads every single lunch. I don't want to have anything else. So you use the things that you have accessible to you to make it more fun. You have accessible to you to make it addictive to do the things that you know you need to do. And if that means covering your salad in steak or ranch or whatever, you do that because it's still the salad. You're still getting the benefits. You just do what you can do, or do whatever you can come up with to have fun, to enjoy life. There's so many things to not enjoy. We have so many reasons to not be grateful or to be stressed out, or to be worried, or to be angry, or to be offended, or to be upset or to be depressed. What are we doing to counterbalance that? Like, have some fun If you need to put gummy bears on your salad.
Tara Wagner:Put gummy bears on your salad, I don't care, have some fun.
Darron Brown:I love gummy bears. You want all of those. That's what I expect.
Tara Wagner:I'm not organic, at least.
Darron Brown:Oh wow, I have any question.
Tara Wagner:Yeah.
Darron Brown:This is for the watcher, the viewer. What is your philosophy for life?
Tara Wagner:Oh, depends on my mood. You know, I went through this experience years ago. I was studying meditation at an ashram actually in the US and had this experience in meditation of realizing that life is a play and we are the actor and we are the playwright and we are the director and we are the audience and we are the backstage hand, we're the characters and we get lost in our character. We forget that we're the actor on the stage. You know how you hear about those actors that get lost in their character and they just like go crazy. We're the actors getting lost in the play.
Tara Wagner:And that hit me in such a powerful way that I just started realizing all of life is a play. All this is, this is supposed to be fun. I don't need to get lost in my character. I can have fun with my character. My character can have emotions, my character can have good days and bad days.
Tara Wagner:But anytime I start feeling overwhelmed by life, I have built this habit of just taking a deep breath and reminding myself Don't get lost in your character. None of this is really real, none of this is really going to matter a thousand years from now, like this tiny little blip is going to be gone a million years from now. Other people on other planets, I assume, think we're all crazy. You know, like it's you, I just learned to not take life so seriously because I'm a very serious, intense person anyway and I, from that moment on I was just a lighter person. I just I can still go very deep, get very serious, but but it really does come down to playfulness and and doing what you can do to make the difference that you can make so that you can enjoy your life in the way that you want to enjoy it.
Darron Brown:It's crazy how aligned we all are. Everybody I've asked that question to I've given like, given like a similar answer, you know, in a different way and we all kind of lose ourself and somewhere along the line in life, you know, and it's not interesting to get back there. Yeah, as well, it's well it really is.
Tara Wagner:I mean, truth is universal, right, Like there are certain things that we may use different words to describe it, but we're all kind of having the same experience and understanding that. I mean. That just helps me to understand other people. It helps me to be more patient and kind to other people. Some people make it especially hard, but it's just. You know. Yeah, I just always try to remember that nothing I'm going through is that serious, Even the serious health things that I've gone through, or losing people or you know all of that.
Tara Wagner:I like to remind myself like first world problems there are. There's so much worse out there and you know what good is it going to do if I let myself feel like crap I'm. I cannot make a difference anywhere if I am stressed out, depressed, angry, frustrated. I'm going to make a better difference if I am centered, grounded, clear minded, If I'm healthy, if I am at peace, if I am in a place of love. That's when I can make a difference. Right, If there's a topic, if there's an issue, if there's a situation, a circumstance, whatever it is, that I don't like in the world, I need to ask myself like, how does my best self show up to this, Because if I'm not shown up as my best self, I'm not doing my best, I'm not making the best impact that I can make, but but for me it just it comes down to play and being silly and having fun and laughing and and remembering that it doesn't have to be as serious as it feels.
Darron Brown:Tara, thank you for those, the final words. It was a great message and, yeah, thank you for being here and I guess this is the Follow Us People Life podcast and I'll catch you guys later. Have a good one.
